(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]GN[Kido Cup 2019 - Round 7 - Artem Kachanovskyi 2p (w) vs Andrii Kravets 1p (b)]PW[阿特姆]PB[Andrii Kravets]WR[二段]BR[一段]DT[2019-06-10]EV[Kido Cup 2019]RO[Round 7]PC[Hamburg]US[T. Kreuzer];B[pp];W[dd];B[dp];W[pd];B[cc]C[SleinEtorg [5k]: MAHLZEIT . . .akinn [5k]: c17 is hard to digestKidoCup1 [-]: Welcome to the 7th round of the Kido Cup 2019.KidoCup1 [-]: This is the last round.];W[dc];B[cd];W[de];B[bf];W[cq];B[cp];W[dq];B[fq];W[eq]C[gogonuts [2d?]: is 1st place already decided?];B[ep];W[fr];B[bq];W[br];B[er]C[theolddan [1d]: hard question it seemsKidoCup1 [-]: Artem is leading with 5 wins, but Andrii and Remi are just behind him with 4 wins each.];W[bp];B[cr];W[aq];B[dr];W[bq];B[gr];W[fp];B[gq];W[cn];B[fn];W[pq]C[gogonuts [2d?]: thxKidoCup1 [-]: Remi won against both Artem and Andrii and the Tiebreaker is direct comparison.gogonuts [2d?]: q3 looks bot correct :-)gogonuts [2d?]: I haven't asked leela thoughakinn [5k]: i saw humans play it recently];B[oq];W[qq]C[gogonuts [2d?]: well they swa leela too :-)gogonuts [2d?]: sawTerranigma [1d]: q3 has been played since forever];B[op];W[ro];B[pm]C[gogonuts [2d?]: imagine if a guy in your club had dug in under the hoshis like this before bots - you would have called a doctor :-)U [-]: who cares, watch the gameHellhuman [?]: did artem win against cornel?gogonuts [2d?]: 0.5 pointsHellhuman [?]: thanksakinn [5k]: q7 is a super continuation, very early for w to invade, may only bring problemsTictactoe [-]: I would call a doctor anyhow, despite bots];W[nc];B[ic]C[gogonuts [2d?]: lolHellhuman [?]: Ah, welvang is 1p account now :-) congratstheolddan [1d]: no need to hurry invasion];W[kc];B[ie]C[U [-]: yeah i could see him being in a huge hurry to get attentionU [-]: but anyway the tournament...playgo [-]: A K is gonna winU [-]: so fom what i gathered, artem jt neesd to win and he wins, and if artem loses, itll depend on whether rami beats siasio?U [-]: as to whether andrii or remi wins];W[hd]C[KidoCup1 [-]: U, I think you got it right.];B[he]C[U [-]: alright thanksTerranigma [1d]: h17 j16 j18?Terranigma [1d]: or just push through?gogonuts [2d?]: I think the silly looking g16Oscar101 [4k]: f16gogonuts [2d?]: cutting isolates the wall, and h17 is so low on libs after b connectsakinn [5k]: g17?theolddan [1d]: h17 locally i would say; but first force at b15 or c14?Terranigma [1d]: maybe even g15?theolddan [1d]: depending on response w has the option of j16];W[cf]C[gogonuts [2d?]: just asked leela - leela said d8 :-)Terranigma [1d]: leela be trollingtheolddan [1d]: leela wise];B[ce]C[theolddan [1d]: usuallyxgogonuts [2d?]: my g16 was the least bad, hurrah :-)theolddan [1d]: any leela online comment on the playing site?gogonuts [2d?]: leela also didnt like c15gogonuts [2d?]: b13 about 5% better heregogonuts [2d?]: ok, 4%Mjolnir [4k?]: im cheering for Andrii, but he is yawning a lot - is he tired?];W[id]C[U [-]: imagine pretending you know what youre talking about by spitting out bot numbersU [-]: lazy..theolddan [1d]: just think of the price money-> will give him some relieveU [-]: andrii isnt in complete control of his destiny though];B[gd];W[jd]C[gogonuts [2d?]: it's not my fault that bot are in the worldtheolddan [1d]: w opted for j16 finallygogonuts [2d?]: I'm not selling their insight for mineU [-]: its your fault that you continue to spit out umbers and act like they mean anythingTerranigma [1d]: they mean more than most of what yall spew in here];B[fe]C[U [-]: if you want to dispute that, quantify what you mean when a move is 4-5% better or worsegogonuts [2d?]: well, me spitting out number does imply that I have concluded that they do have meaningtheolddan [1d]: i think its interesting to know what leela thinksU [-]: and im telling you that youre wrongwolokom [5k]: go tv?Mjolnir [4k?]: and you should stop it, Utheolddan [1d]: w will d13 now (any other guesses?)gogonuts [2d?]: 5% has no real absolute value in human terms - it is only the prediction how results between computers would shift - but it does have meaning in the simple sense of better or worse];W[cb]C[U [-]: so theres no value to it, oknoemis [?]: *probably* better or worseTerranigma [1d]: values are pretty much the _only_ thing to emKidoCup1 [-]: Please conclude this topic within the next 5 moves, thank you. :-)gogonuts [2d?]: I think it's better for me to report on raw numbers than to preinterpret them for others];B[bb];W[eb]C[gogonuts [2d?]: I'm doneU [-]: maybes its bette for you to keep it to yourselfplaygo [-]: sightheolddan [1d]: e18 looks smartU [-]: at best, youre spitting you numbers that anyone in here could find themselves if they caresTerranigma [1d]: U: shut up: we don't need another fake mod in hereU [-]: at worst, youre spamming numbers that have no meaning or thought behind them];B[df];W[cg];B[bg]C[gogonuts [2d?]: you can ignore, not everybody is sitting at a desktopwolokom [5k]: its simply alpha go lets see what happendU [-]: whats easier to do: you to stop typing, or everyone else to ignore youMjolnir [4k?]: U, u r boring, there are a lot of ppl interested in numbers];W[ch]C[U [-]: if they were interested they would have their own bot upMjolnir [4k?]: are you a troll?Terranigma [1d]: anyway, this is a pretty nice sequence by W, no?U [-]: i wont type my reply to that in public chattheolddan [1d]: if w gets in atari at b1 in sente then this whole sequence was a success];B[ef];W[ba]C[theolddan [1d]: b19theolddan [1d]: i meantgogonuts [2d?]: w is doing very well this the miai connection or e14 capture - no numbers needed for thattheolddan [1d]: ths is very nice senteakinn [5k]: focus on the game pls];B[bh];W[ci];B[ab]C[U [-]: you dont need numbers to determine whether something is good or not. its called using your mind. which people in the go community are increasingly refusing to do];W[gc];B[cl]C[gogonuts [2d?]: now you are the lazy one - bots help to correct your intuitionwolokom [5k]: everything is alive only c11 seems to have troublesKidoCup1 [-]: Time is up guys.U [-]: using bots often hurts it more than helps it if you misapply it, which you are doingtheolddan [1d]: Kido will call the doc finally];W[fi]C[akinn [5k]: if everybody would optimally understand bots we would not be watching this gameThor [4d?]: how furtunate we are that U is here to educate everyone elsekjh97 [-]: but you do actually need AI numbers to determine if it's good though...];B[hi]C[U [-]: im jst imagining the twitch commentary now. theres no high dans analysing game, its just a 20 kyu with a computer spitting out numbers. thats what some of you want apparentlykjh97 [-]: else you are just arrogantU [-]: you dont need them.Oscar101 [4k]: these guys have been playing leelas moves for a while now lolTerranigma [1d]: that computer _is_ a high danbighorst [2k]: U is absolutely rightkjh97 [-]: you need a high dan to analyse the AI moves...U [-]: the computer is based on a concept no human can achieve in a realistic gameskjh97 [-]: and explain the rationalekjh97 [-]: as best they canU [-]: then why are there kyus in here sptting out numbers and taking it as gospelU [-]: thats the issue heretheolddan [1d]: w has to handle two groups now as c6 not 100% aliveplaygo [-]: move 63 has been playedtheolddan [1d]: can he isolate c8?];W[em]C[theolddan [1d]: this is sente kjh97 [-]: well i think they're free to say what AI recommends since it is helpful, but they probably shouldn't defend the move or insist that it is best without being able to understand itAhamay [-]: you really spoiled the day for me, U, thanks a lot];B[el];W[fl]C[Ahamay [-]: we are using our brains, in case you were wondering];B[ek]C[wolokom [5k]: lets see and think for both u for whight the others for blackU [-]: i like your commentarys, i hope theres more of themU [-]: its the peoples overdependence of bots is the major issuetheolddan [1d]: my feeling is the w is too thin to hold e9theolddan [1d]: what do you think?Terranigma [1d]: i dont think holding e9 is the objectiveSleinEtorg [5k]: i think botsgames need a own room on KGS, that ists easyer to ignore ittheolddan [1d]: well istnt there a room?gogonuts [2d?]: the next moves doesn't neesd abot, it only needs nerves :-)theolddan [1d]: alreadyEpiphany [5k]: My own view is that bots play ultra fast and that can wreck focus wolokom [5k]: Slein absolutly trueTerranigma [1d]: never let your own pace be dictated by your opponent, human or otherwiseEpiphany [5k]: Easier said than done - that is the problem for manytheolddan [1d]: @Terranigma if w doesnt contain e9 how will he settle f11?wolokom [5k]: time?];W[fm]C[akinn [5k]: mayb connect  mh not going to happenKidoCup1 [-]: W 39 min, B 27 min.gogonuts [2d?]: w knew this is the right move - it just felt so scary :-)Terranigma [1d]: one option for w is to put  pressure on that other group and move into the centerU [-]: it feels like w can use blacks weak-ish shape to make something happen];B[fk]C[U [-]: with his c11 stones at leasttheolddan [1d]: that leaves f11 aloneTerranigma [1d]: dunno about this sequence hto];W[en]C[Gigot [1k]: Hello. Where can we find updated results of the tournament please?gogonuts [2d?]: hm, why didn't w wiggle out?];B[fo]C[wolokom [5k]: hmtheolddan [1d]: feels like the minus in loosing f11 is bigger then loosing the lower side moyoU [-]: maybe now he does, fixing shape in sente?gogonuts [2d?]: also, even though b answered, the exchange hurts wKidoCup1 [-]: Results (although 6th round is still missing):KidoCup1 [-]: http://kidocup.go-turniere.de/ergebnisse-results/playgo [-]: white may sacrifice some stonesgogonuts [2d?]: this exchange could even put the corner in heopardy laterKidoCup2 [-]: Artem, Andrii, Stanislaw and Dominik won last round.akinn [5k]: gogon i think you get that oppositeTerranigma [1d]: yeah i think f7 instead of f9 was weirdtheolddan [1d]: with w cutting at g9 b still has problemstheolddan [1d]: so i dont like f5];W[gf]C[U [-]: basically the situation for this final round is: artem wins, he wins tournament. if andrii wins, he will win if remi loses to siasio on board 3. if both andrii and remi win, remi winsU [-]: yeah i was looking at this peep...];B[ge];W[gh]C[U [-]: his shape seems a bit open for pokseSleinEtorg [5k]: results not updated realtime, thats not 4.0akinn [5k]: b9 is an eyeTerranigma [1d]: w is crazy];B[hh]C[wolokom [5k]: b10  keeps b alive gogonuts [2d?]: w is doing reading overtime];W[gj];B[gk];W[hj]C[theolddan [1d]: now b is in a mess; f5 is to blame imhogogonuts [2d?]: b is recovering but still bad];B[bm];W[bn];B[hm]C[playgo [-]: time to livetheolddan [1d]: he wa able to cleanly capture f11 but he decided otherwisegogonuts [2d?]: b7 for b6 was not actually helpfulgogonuts [2d?]: obviously loses the attachment at b6 for laterwolokom [5k]: n 3 huge moyotheolddan [1d]: what about w next move? i would like k10];W[hk]C[theolddan [1d]: somehow protects the g11 cutgogonuts [2d?]: and if w exchanges b7 for b8, that is still no extra eye and helps bs potensial connection to the top];B[bj];W[cj]C[akinn [5k]: it is about trying to kill c11];B[bk]C[VPP79 [2k]: b1gogonuts [2d?]: w d7 is now very painful for b];W[hl];B[gl]C[Terranigma [1d]: VPP79: never live sooner than necessaryVPP79 [2k]: ))];W[cs]C[gogonuts [2d?]: strange change of plan];B[jm];W[hg];B[ig];W[ih]C[playgo [-]: give a few stones to save the moyogogonuts [2d?]: but that is nice - b hates having to answer quenstions heretheolddan [1d]: that question cannot be ignored];B[ii];W[jh]C[theolddan [1d]: j13 looks 90'% dead nowU [-]: artem did well handling these two groupsgogonuts [2d?]: the game can end heretheolddan [1d]: b gets 40 points on bottom but needs to invest one more move];B[ji]C[ceramic [1d]: some aji at e12];W[jg]C[U [-]: well andrii had a worse start against cornel but still came back at the endgogonuts [2d?]: lol];B[if]C[theolddan [1d]: now w playes it savegogonuts [2d?]: yes, he is tenaciousU [-]: im rooting for artem but hard to count him out until the bitter end];W[jf]C[gogonuts [2d?]: artem: no more mr nice guytheolddan [1d]: w has to watch out for g11 theolddan [1d]: but prob its not good immediatly];B[fc];W[fb]C[gogonuts [2d?]: if they trade groups, I don't think even andrii can come backplaygo [-]: b can save his group ?];B[fg];W[gg];B[fh];W[gi];B[ei];W[ff]C[KidoCup2 [-]: Results of the top8 are now upto date in the webpage.gogonuts [2d?]: koSleinEtorg [5k]: THXgogonuts [2d?]: w tries to connect, b cuts with ko];B[ee];W[eg];B[dg];W[eh];B[dh]C[gogonuts [2d?]: entirely dirfferent resultgogonuts [2d?]: b "wins" the fight, w wins the gameSleinEtorg [5k]: ;-)theolddan [1d]: w must look happy now; dont dare to look at Andrii now];W[gm];B[dm]C[U [-]: there are live cams on twitch];W[im];B[hn];W[in]C[U [-]: https://www.twitch.tv/europeangofederationU [-]: with commentary];B[io]C[theolddan [1d]: thanks is see];W[jn]C[theolddan [1d]: andrii looks a bit depressed];B[jo];W[kn]C[theolddan [1d]: and artem looks llike reposing in himself];B[ko]C[KidoCup2 [-]: artem always looks like thisU [-]: artem is normally pretty stoicplaygo [-]: if q7 wasn't there, the game would already be lost for black];W[ln]C[gogonuts [2d?]: I prefer bot numbers to Stephen Hu talking :-)];B[lo]C[U [-]: then do it in the privacy of your own cave];W[pi];B[jl];W[il]C[gogonuts [2d?]: you need to take your bot hate back a notch, I have completely accomodated youU [-]: i do appreciate it, but im still of the opinions bots ruined go to a degree. moreso online go];B[oi]C[KidoCup1 [-]: gogo, how dare you bring that up again. Go and stand in the corner.];W[ph];B[pj]C[Welvang [1p]: even if it did, keep repeating that will only make it worseMuttley [-]: No invading corners without permission.U [-]: yeah the kibitz has been nice lately so im good with continuing it];W[ki]C[U [-]: and not polluting itgogonuts [2d?]: I agree totally on that - any fool switching on the bot and turning it around is extremly annoyingtheolddan [1d]: there is live in the corner];B[oh];W[pg];B[oj]C[U [-]: so what does b need to do to catch up];W[gn];B[ho];W[eo];B[gp];W[co];B[qd];W[qe]C[Muttley [-]: 58 71.5 depends on this invasion I guessMuttley [-]: oh wait, white can let black live here and still wingogonuts [2d?]: w can try hard to kill and fail, that would prob do it :-)U [-]: yeah true. i think artem has a good temperament thoMuttley [-]: not impossible to kill black, thoughU [-]: no but i dont think arte will try too hard, at least try to keep sentetheolddan [1d]: if artem wins he gets about 500 EUR less then if he loosesakinn [5k]: if b lives and looses k8 je also looses i think];B[pe]C[Hietha [5k]: where would artem like to tenuki to if he keeps sente?akinn [5k]: he<r0n1n [?]: how so, theolddan ?U [-]: id wager something on lower right side];W[qf]C[theolddan [1d]: i just looked at the price money on the web siteHietha [5k]: r8?theolddan [1d]: 1 gets 1500 2nd 1000U [-]: i think you got it backwards. and actually if artem loses theres a chance he can fall to 3rd too];B[pc];W[od];B[rd];W[pb];B[qb];W[ob];B[re];W[rf];B[se];W[or];B[nr];W[pr];B[nf];W[ng];B[og];W[of]C[theolddan [1d]: yeah i wasnt precise; thanks U for pointing this out];B[mg];W[ne]C[gogonuts [2d?]: w t17 still looks very unhealthy for the corner];B[kj]C[U [-]: artem could fall to third if he loses, and remi beat siasio. that would make it remi 1st, andrii 2nd, artem 3rd];W[di];B[ej];W[je];B[ck]C[theolddan [1d]: @gogo ; kim at twithc pointed this out a couple of moments agogogonuts [2d?]: what did he say is the result?theolddan [1d]: "not completly alive" was his comment];W[li]C[gogonuts [2d?]: loltheolddan [1d]: but no final result giventheolddan [1d]: just like i would have said itgogonuts [2d?]: I was just as dodgy, so I can't complainU [-]: is n2 too much?U [-]: seems like it might begogonuts [2d?]: no, it worksBlitzbold [2k]: n2,middle... but still t17 looks like a knockout kotheolddan [1d]: looks like s18 is the move for w in upper cornernoemis [?]: T17 looks like a ko after T18/S18/S19U [-]: if top right is ko then artem prob not in hurry to start it, esp if hes still aheadgogonuts [2d?]: agree];B[mn]C[noemis [?]: S18 also ko except I missed a sequenceU [-]: and andrii not gonna spend a move to fix itgogonuts [2d?]: other stuff just dies];W[mm]C[Blitzbold [2k]: yep - i think t17 better ko for w, but doesnt really mattertheolddan [1d]: so artem has a ko in reservegogonuts [2d?]: he meant t17 as the attack and t18 as the answer I thinkBlitzbold [2k]: nah somebody suggested s18 for w in upper rightgogonuts [2d?]: ah I see, I missed the 2nd suggestion];B[ll]C[gogonuts [2d?]: b now in "prove it" mode];W[jj]C[Blitzbold [2k]: just k10 - ugly bit takes threats & ajiBlitzbold [2k]: *but];B[lm]C[Schachus12 [?]: on the stream they also showed s18 as the attackgogonuts [2d?]: plus ko threats for the corner if b cutsanton007 [-]: W can start ko now];W[mr];B[ns]C[Blitzbold [2k]: w will produce threats nowtheolddan [1d]: stell in reserve];W[nq];B[mq]C[theolddan [1d]: still];W[np];B[lr];W[mp]C[Schachus12 [?]: does w need these threats?];B[lq];W[oo]C[Oscar101 [4k]: so top right is a ko if white plays first?Schachus12 [?]: ah, its not meant to be threats, is itBlitzbold [2k]: i think n2 was gone after b n6];B[po]C[U [-]: yeah unless this leads somewhere. i dont feel like he would if it didnt cause it loses big endgame];W[on]C[gogonuts [2d?]: strong artemgogonuts [2d?]: nothing doing for bRaduStefan [1d]: o5Blitzbold [2k]: o5 just worksgogonuts [2d?]: you mean "works" :-)theolddan [1d]: he is a viewer of the game seated in first rangU [-]: i think andrii resignedHietha [5k]: Seems soOscar101 [4k]: P10 group and M8 group can be cut off U [-]: yeah games over theyre discussing itHietha [5k]: W+RU [-]: so artem wins the kido cup going 6/7KidoCup1 [-]: Hi, sorry for the delay...KidoCup1 [-]: W + ResKidoCup1 [-]: Thanks for watching!KidoCup1 [-]: This was the last round if this year's Kido Cup.KidoCup1 [-]: Artem makes the 1st place with a 6:1 score.KidoCup1 [-]: Have fun watching the other games. :-)KidoCup1 [-]: ByeDreamrace [4k]: Was much of the start Joeski nowadays?Dreamrace [4k]: since AI engines])